I guess I see 1-5k as a lot of money, and would have enough interest to understand exactly how it is being used. @Diversify I do concede there will be people out there not like me! I think that market will be getting smaller and smaller but there will always of course be those that want someone else to do the perceived āhard workāā¦ I just hope itās sooner rather than later that people realise this isnāt hard work in a world with freetrade!
Split into a new topic as went a little off the Revolut Wealth conversation
Thanks Tommy!
Cheers Tommyā¦ we really tried hard not to
Thanks and sorry!
Last week I made some comments about why Iām not a fan of robo-advisors. Fortuitously, the FCA have today published an in-depth review of the sector, which means I can simply point to their authority and make it look like I know what Iām talking about
Here is the review. Here is what the press think. And here is why it matters:
The service and fee-related disclosures at most ODIM firms in our sample were unclear. Some firms did not make clear whether their service was advised, non-advised, discretionary or non-discretionary. Some firms also compared their fee levels against peer services in a potentially misleading way.
Are customers being advised? Are they having their investments managed? (Thereās an important regulatory distinction.) It seems the platforms in question donāt know themselves. If the value and price of the two are different, how can consumers compare them?
Many firms offering ODIM services did not properly evaluate a clientās knowledge and experience, investment objectives and capacity for loss in their suitability assessments.
The only value premise of these platforms is that they tell you what to invest in, otherwise youād just do it yourself.
As such, this is driven completely by how sophisticated their technology is to āautomaticallyā make recommendations that are personal to you and your circumstances. The FCA are clearly saying that the platforms they reviewed in the sector literally cannot do the one thing customers are paying them for in a compliant manner.
Some firms did not ask clients about their knowledge and experience at all, as they felt their service was suitable for all individuals regardless of their investment knowledge and experience.
Imagine paying 1% a year to be given access to the same ETFs as Jonny down the street because your financial needs are the same. It seems unlikely to me.
ā¦some services failed to request or gather adequate information about customersā debt and other outgoings. Firms should consider how to improve the amount and quality of client information collected during the auto advice process.
This problem stems from the fact that the suitability process is tied to onboarding. It creates a conflict whereby platforms are incentivised to create smooth and minimal processes in order to keep the customer engaged, but also results in a fundamentally poor assessment of their actual needs.
If I answer 5 questions each with 4 options to choose from about my risk appetite and income, for example, thatās a great customer experience on the face of it. Gets me in the door quickly and I can deposit my money. But Iām only getting advice / management services that are as sophisticated as the quiz.
It leads customers to being categorised into buckets of pre-set ETFs that are defined for set demographics, not the needs of the individual customer.
We expect automated investment services to meet the same regulatory standards as traditional discretionary or advisory services. This means taking a proportionate approach to information gathering while maintaining the appropriate level of client protection.
Itās a sad day when a regulator points out that technology solutions have led to poorer outcomes than traditional physical and human channels. Thereās clearly a lot more to do for automated investment platforms to overcome their human, IFA counterparts.
(Iām envisaging an open-banking powered AI that has awareness of my social personality and financial situation, using this over time to amend my investment allocations. When this exists and costs <1% maybe then Iāll consider it as an adequate substitute to doing my own research.)
Most firms in the ODIM services sample were unable to show that they had adequate and up to date information about their clients when providing an ongoing service.
Because where the advice process gets conflated with onboarding, why would you take the customer back to onboarding?
Many platforms cite periodic rebalancing to justify their fees; the idea being that the markets move over time and therefore so should your ETF allocations. Well, the circumstances of customers are also fluid, and if the platform is not aware of this, how can it respond?
One last tidbitā¦
We also announced our intention to review new entrants to the market in the future.
ā benchmarking new entrants against higher standards informed by this review and earlier ones. Expect it to be much tougher to launch a new platform from this point onwards.
TL;DR - the true innovation at play here is the ETF. Paying a fee to these glorified online quizzes in order to access them is damaging to investors of all sizes, and itās unfortunate that itās been legitimised as āfintechā. Spend some time researching what to invest in (and how to invest in it cheaply!) or pay for some real advice.
This is where I see the real opportunity to provide a truly innovative and intelligent service whilst removing the human advisory (read cost) element. Itās certainly complex from both technical and ethical perspectives, especially in terms of using social media footprints to permit access to financial products, but it could be transformative if transparently and robustly regulated, cf. China!
@freetrade_cal yes and yes! financial services firm + app = fintech ā (necessarily) innovation in my view, but thatās certainly the narrative. I think thatās the damaging part. Misleading claims and lack of transparency, once exposed will only further erode trust, further dissuading people use the true innovative services or firms.
I also fully agree here, the convenience and reach of these services thanks to community forums and various App stores (as @adam previously referenced) has almost certainly driven interest and uptake to the point in which over 30,000 people have signed up for Freetrade before being able to even use the service. Granted, itās a small slice (for now) but the likes of Robinhood, Revolut and Monzo are proving as you say these impressive levels of engagement by their customer numbers alone.
Great find, but I have a serious issue with the reporting here: ODIMs and Auto-Advisers are clearly distinct categories under an umbrella sector, yet this report makes it easy for the 2 to be conflated.
Weāre specifically talking about Auto-Advisers here (presumably Nutmeg, Wealthify, Moneyfarm et al).
I donāt see the findings for Auto-Advisers as damning in this report; the conclusion is actually quite positive for this fledgling, evolving industry. What is damning is the findings for ODIMs which youāve quoted a lot.
The problem is who are the 7 ODIM companies that were reviewed? Who are the 3 Auto-Advisors that were reviewed? Theyāre not named and this is critical info if I am to interpret this expectations guidance correctly.
From Nutmegās terms:
We will provide you with a discretionary investment management service, which means that we make all investment decisions on your behalf.
Thereās is not an advised service. It is investment management (āODIMā) and it is the same for the others you reference. The publicās confusion over this very point is a key part of the FCAās findings.
Iām afraid the FCA donāt have much choice but to draw such conclusions. After all, they need to be unequivocally pro-competition and pro-innovation in every way. Their actual findings are anything but, and this represents a serious wake-up call to the robo industry.
Iām still confused. So to clarify does āauto-adviserā mean the same as ārobo-adviserā? My impression is yes.
Second, are Nutmeg, Wealthify and Moneyfarm auto/robo-advisors, or ODIMs?
Third, what company is an example of an ODIM? This term is new to me and key to understanding the report so that I donāt conflate the two.
The problem is that the industry / public term is ārobo-adviserā, but the regulatory permission is investment management. As I mentioned above, advice and management have important regulatory distinctions (hence FCAās concerns) but nobody, including the platforms, seems to know who is doing what or either.
Advice ā based on your circumstances this is what we think you should do, but the decision is yours and you have to make the investments yourself. (The confusion arises where the act of investing takes place on the same platform which provides the advice. In my experience these are few and far between, which is probably why the FCA only reviewed 3 and not 7.)
Management ā give us your money and based on your circumstances weāll invest it in what we think is best. (This is the classic ārobo-adviserā as you probably know it. Itās much easier to put together than providing advice and investment in the same place and ensuring that it is categorically advice and not management.)
(The third category of investing is āexecution-onlyā, which includes Freetrade - the investor decides what and where to invest of their own accord and takes responsibility for such.)
Great definitions. Seen so many get this wrong, and have seen teams tie themselves in knots trying to decide how to communicate what advice means to the general customer.
I have found personally the simple formulae below works
- regulator tells us we need to say x
- what this means for you in your interaction with our company
- a scenario or two to illustrate
companies often try to explain all that in a meaningless statement, like the nutmeg one you used, which ends up being regulatory questionable at best and confusing for the customers understanding of the product/service they are getting.
Great example thread here of how consumers can have the these products explained simply.
āour intention to reviewā sounds like itāll be some time from now. The issue with making it harder for new entrants without applying the same criteria to existing companies might mean less competition, so higher prices which is also bad, maybe even worse.
Is this not something to be excited aboutā¦?
Iām guessing Dr Stange doesnāt foresee this happening again
This is probably thread worthy in of itself, but this is one of the psychological āfearsā of self-selecting oneās own serious portfolio without some form of prepackaged advice:
This is misleading and lazy research by Boring Money.
They cherry-picked the top performing diversified portfolio from each robo-adviser, and compared it to the FTSE 100 (a pure large cap UK equity index).
For a valid comparison, they would benchmark the robo-adviserās return against an index or custom benchmark that has a similar mix of asset classes (eg an international equity portfolio should not be compared to a UK diversified portfolio) and a similar risk profile (eg standard deviation).
If anyone really wants to geek out on benchmarking, GIPS is the gold-standard: https://www.gipsstandards.org/standards/Documents/Guidance/exposure_draft_public_comment_benchmarks.pdf
Benchmarking is coming to Freetrade, itās a priority feature. You should know how your investments really compare.
Very valid point! Adam 1 Boring Money 0
I look forward to this
Thanks for the link; will definitely check it out
A big chunk of people do not want to be investors, do not have the time or the inclination to do their own research, and certainly do not have the money to pay for proper advisory. So robo-advisors could actually be their own alternative, at least for now.
Well put! We also want to implement an āautopilotā feature to automate your investments.