Haha. Good luck in your investments. I do wish you well, of course. I know that may not come across in my post. I think I was caught in a moment of irascibility … A bit grumpier that day than usual , so my keyboard took a beating.
Let me know if you’re interested to chat more. My impression - taking a broader perspective of the changes our society has undergone - is that the huge leaps in industry & technology kind of occur spontaneously without a single governing force. The kind of green changes that green investors wish to promote occur less because of their investment - than by a kind of organic breakthrough in a new frontier. A sort of diffuse intelligence. I suspect the next wall is nuclear power (have you seen the kind of stuff Bill Gates has been funding and organising? It’s a very promising alternative to coal…).
That’s great. I am happy that you’re doing well, and I bear no ill-will. If I was you, I would sell it, and lock-in those gains. I’m sure you think I am absolutely insane for saying this, but I’ll write a bit more on this. Feel free to ignore, but I hope (at the least) it prompts some discussion and thought.
Tesla’s meteoric rise to a trillion dollar valuation reflects a perception about its future value. People buy TSLA stock at these prices because they believe that the stock will grow at a much higher rate. So, in five-years it will be 3x. Ultimately, of course, nobody can prognosticate. Its future value is unknown at this point. Sure, Tesla is very innovative, with a wonderful brand with a technological head-start over competitors. But there are some serious reservations, that I think people should have. I don’t like the fact that they have been consistently and repeatedly diluting their shareholders, for example. I think that’s awful.
And I don’t trust their finances. They have removed some 6 CFOs. CFOs don’t seem to last a quarter at Tesla. Big red flag. There is a pending lawsuit concerning the acquisition of Solar City which seems to have been a fraud. You can’t hide financial losses through an acquisition of a company which Musk just happens to be the owner of. Dishonest and sketchy - Enron-y financial chicanery. They’ve almost gone bankrupt several times but were saved because we’re in a huge inflated bond-market bubble (and, probably, stock market) in history. They have had almost no operating income until just recently. Former profits only came from tax credits (yes, government handouts - which are called regulatory credits aka. carbon credits). So, they were selling cars at a loss for years!. And, I think Elon is a glorified pump-and-dump celeb for dog-inspired coins for the get-rick-quick crypto crowds.
Well, I think that if you want to do something about climate change; then more power to you. You can go out in you local community and help out. Whether its raising awareness on the ridiculous overfishing that’s happening all across the world’s seas and oceans, or fighting to increase greenbelt lands, or opposing new runways. But, I don’t think you get to have green credentials merely because you own “green” stock. I am a capitalist - just like you. I expect (like you and everyone on this forum) a return on invested capital. Of course, I would like to associate with companies that conduct themselves in ways that most people would regard as proper and decent. But that’s not making change in the world. Making changes to the world really comes from consumers. You can invest as much as you like in some new green biodegradable phone (just as an example) but that means nothing if consumers up-and-down the country don’t also start changing their habits. When you buy a stock or a share of a business, you are the owner of the business. As a capitalist, you are essentially providing the consumers with goods and services that they want. You aren’t saving the planet - they are.
ESG investing doesn’t affect anything meaningful in the world. It just allows people to pat themselves on the back. It doesn’t actually reduce prices for the “bad” companies as the stock will be picked up on the other side of the trade - a la the efficient market hypothesis.
Thank you for the link on the ESG score sheet. I will read it in more detail, but my cursory reading feels me with more misgivings. According to that site, it says:
Screens out exposure to companies involved in industries such as Controversial Weapons, Nuclear Weapons, Tobacco, Civilian Firearms, Conventional Weapons, Alcohol, Gambling, Adult Entertainment, Nuclear Power and Genetically Modified Organisms.
But, you can add soda drinks, sugary-foods, social media companies, fast food companies (like Deliveroo), banks that regularly get caught red handed (e.g. LIBOR scandal a few years ago). The list goes on. There are loads of things that people consume that aren’t all that strictly good for them.
Trying to be morally high-minded is probably exhausting? You can draw some ethical bounds (cheating & lying, for example), but it’s probably better to effect change by getting good markets returns and then actively donating to worthwhile causes. Investing is best done based on fundamentals and substance.
My fear is that these green ETFs are part of a Wall Street PR-spin bandwagon. Like the “organic foods” label, ESG investing is a way of sell more product by making people think they’re making heroic changes to the world. But, as I’ve explained, it ain’t so.
No worries TBH it did come across way too personal on some points but your follow up 3 posts I find very hard to disagree with and we all get grumpy days!. I thought I was clear it isn’t that green is best but that it can be profitable. Anyone who spends any time on the forum knows I invest in many companies including cruises and mining which is not green at all I am a capitalist and in it to make money 100%. Hell I even buy defence stocks for the inevitable war years in the future so am no eco warrior. I do however think everyone making little steps where possible does help in the larger picture and it shows with the movement to renewables in the last 15 years. Your comment on organic breakthrough is also true but that breakthrough happens as the market sees the demand and then reacts purely to make profit.
My point was any little help to get a bit more notice of green companies no matter how much % is green is a good thing. Most posts/threads get made and then disappear down the list by the same 30 odd big threads and many new stocks. That meant many don’t even know they exist so I thought that as many like the sector, let’s give them a place to see many.
You are very correct in the points about greenwashing and Tesla etc TBF and I also believe it will be the accountants more than the tree huggers that ultimately make the biggest decisions but they will do it when it makes profit in my view.
Excellent post and excuse my rather flippant original response. Yes I’ve taken profits on the way up and reinvested in other longer term EV plays. Sometimes ( such as in the case of Tesla ) you have to hold your nose and go with the flow
There have been green investment funds around since at least the 1980s. There’s much more green wash now though to jump on the ethical bandwagon.
Check out The Ethical Consumer magazine for features on green investments and products.
One of the most popular ETF’s over the last week was
Focused on battery tech with a threshold for ESG compliance it was brought 91 time for everyone 1 sale. Available on Freetrade Plus it looks like a good way to gain exposure to a mix of battery tech companies.
I think with green investments the sell is the easy bit. Tesla’s history being a poster child of course***
The hard bit from there is a combination of expectation management (some years will be spectacular, some will be decidedly dicey), and that I wouldn’t describe green investing as the easiest sector within which to learn. All that being said, I think it’s among the most lucrative sectors of all, I strongly encourage everyone to give it a serious look on financial grounds alone. It’s just a challenging sector to navigate, so a huge thanks to @Big-g for seeking to do something about that.
*** Emphasis from me on history. I wouldn’t personally recommend Tesla at this precise moment, as this would imply that I think a valuation equal to Toyota, VW, Daimler, GM, Ford, Lucid, Nio, BMW, Ferrari and a couple of Chinese makers of similar market cap that I haven’t heard of - combined - represents a bargain.
I agree with everything you’ve said about Tesla, however I’ve thought the same thing for a few years meanwhile it has carried on marching upwards. I think it’s totally irrational but I’m now trying my best not to tell people not to invest because who knows how long it can stay irrational?
Dude, this video is filled with so much disinformation and utter nonsense I’m not even going to bother taking it apart - there are so many it would take me hours. If anyone wants to debate, post the most important point that you think is correct from this video and we can discuss. Otherwise you can safely ignore the entire thing from first word to last.