Pricing UK securities

Finally someone gets it! :grin:

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We’re considering a couple of routes but worth noting that it’s likely that prices on most of our stocks will be fluctuating in the fractions of pence pretty much constantly.

So if you saw an indicative price of 60.37 pence on the top of the stock’s page, that doesn’t necessarily give you extra accuracy.

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14 of the FTSE 100 constituents had a < 1p change today.
It’s not so much about accuracy, but as a % for the penny / low price stocks these amounts are significant. At least in my opinion.

I wouldn’t want to see those stocks rounded and show as flat overnight. Also, for active traders, you might want to trigger an action based on 0.##p so personally I wouldn’t want to lose that view.

You could consider me old school, so I’m interested to hear what others think.

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Maybe the biggest issue with sticking with the LSE GBX convention is the confusion that could arise when using the app from the disparity of pricing formats when switching between UK share dealing and all the other markets, that price differently. If you’ve never purchased shares before (a key segment of Freetrade’s target market), I can imagine that the expectation would be that formats for pricing would be the same across all markets.

Question: if you do any price research outside of Freetrade, pricing and reporting of UK listed shares (including NEX quoted cos?) will be in pence, so does breaking with convention create a greater scope for confusion?

Maybe a toggle (in settings or somewhere else) down the line is a good compromise, as it gives users the choice, for as long as the LSE quotes in GBX, the format remains relevant?

There was a slightly tongue in cheek discussion somewhere, where it had been suggested it could be fun to introduce a toggle, so you could switch between :freetrade: mode and :tophat: mode - perhaps the trade off is when using the latter, fees are also adjusted to reflect this?

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Most people who have done trading for some time will find this idea strange in practice because they are not used to it. People normally don’t like change, it’s a natural response. I don’t think people who are new to trading will find this too much of a problem, they may get confused if they start looking at pricing out of Freetrade which I am sure will create a good number of questions asking why Freetrade does it in pounds.

However, I don’t think that the reason “because everyone else does it in pence” is good enough to not implement the idea. Most companies most likely still use pence mainly because in their eyes that is how it has been done for years and by everyone else.

For me personally, as long as the change does not affect an individuals ability to trade fairly and responsibly then changing the pricing seems reasonable. On top of that if the developers feel like spoiling us then maybe they can even add a toggle option between the two. :grin: For the time I have known Freetrade, I have learned that it does not seem like a company who is afraid to change and challenge the “norm”.

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I actually did some more research on the rationale behind using pence (bizzarely):

The problem was in the common currency created in 1707 by Article 16 of the Articles of Union, which continued in use until decimalisation in 1971. In the traditional pounds, shillings and pence system, there were 20 shillings per pound and 12 pence per shilling, and thus there were 240 pence in a pound.

This is why LSE kept using pence. Imagine comparing the following:

  • 1 Pound - 7 Shillings - 10 pence VS 2 Pounds - 15 Shillings - 8 Pence
  • 334 Pence VS 668 Pence

In each case, the second option is the double of the first, but clearly they had an argument for using pence before 1971.

Why it was not adapted to the decimalisation and harmonised with the rest of the world for the last 47 years - no idea. No logic.

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That’s really interesting to see the reasoning @Vlad, thanks for posting that. And thanks to everyone for posting your views on this.

Our reasoning for this change is really very simple. It is very confusing to anyone new to investing that only UK stocks are listed in pence. During our early research anyone I’ve talked to who is either new to or a novice in investment didn’t know this or understand why, and no other service out there is doing anything to help. In fact some a making the problem worse by not even listing the currency but just show a number and expect you to know what the currency is based on the market.

It would be very easy for us to say “well that’s just how it is”, but that is not Freetrade’s approach to anything, and I hope we will never settle for this. I believe that we’re making a bold decision and I understand that not everyone will be completely happy with this, but right now for us it feels like the right move.

That’s not to say we want to alienate anyone who is a more experienced investor, on the contrary we just think they will be more able to adapt to this initially. And longer term if there is a strong request then we will look to iterate and come up with a solution that fits for all, which could be to add setting to change things to a more personal preference.

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What if, rather than a toggle, you could tap the price to change between pennies and pounds.

How are you planning to show US prices?

EDIT: Just to clarify. I’m referring to a toggle in settings.

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That’ll be dollars.

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@Freetrade_Team_Design Fine by me - if Freetrade keep their charges low that’s the winner. If I want my ‘p’ fix I’ll just retreat to my trusty GOOGLEFINANCE’d sheet…

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Will you be showing the equivalent price in £’s at all, or should we be checking the exchange rate? I’m just trying to ascertain if there’s a precedent to be set with local formats etc.

If for instance you were going to show $100 (£77.55) then it’s feasible to show 7755p (£77.55).

I think it could look messy on the LSE but it’s preferable to a toggle, in my opinion.

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The first time I saw the pricing of a UK stock my first thought was" wow they are expensive" then once I figured out that were pence and not £ the fact that price was in pence didn’t bothered me the least.
The most important part is to make clear what units are you using! :smiley:

Thanks @Vlad for the history, very interesting!
I still prefer the decimal system but maybe because I’m accustomed to it.

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As someone who isn’t an experienced investor, has only just dipped their toe in a little and is still learning I think it’s a positive step towards more mass adoption and making the barrier to entry for new users lower.

When I first started looking in to investing on other websites and the market in general, the pricing was a little confusing for a complete newbie. I think it’s unfair to say someone shouldn’t be investing in the first place when I think pounds is actually the less confusing way of displaying it for people new to the industry.

Might be an unpopular opinion but I see the benefit.

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I can accept the argument for display in £. I don’t agree, and think it can cause confusion for some, however people will learn quickly and we are breaking the mould after all.

My main concern is getting enough significant figures. So long as we can see £0.6502 (or more) it gives a fair representation of the relevant data and I can live with the rest.

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Great idea! pricing in pence is very confusing to anyone who hasn’t invested before - there is really no need for it these days. Another reason why Freetrade is a great investment.

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Love this idea! Agree with @VikPaw at times I’d like to also see the decimals below pennies e.g. Lloyds @ £0.6064

It isn’t as clean including the extra decimals, but 0.6p is 1% which matters IMO! No need for this on more expensive stocks like the Rightmove example though…

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I like the idea of listing in pounds but do agree also with some of the other sentiments on shares trading at a fraction of a penny.

Maybe having £ and pence the same size font and then 2 more numbers afterwards that are in a smaller font?

The examples I’ve seen so far have pounds bugger than pence in the share price.

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Once I wanted to sell my RSUs and placed an order in pence and it didn’t execute because Computershare was expecting in £.

Fuel. And utilities.

I understand the rationale for this UX change, though, for a consumer retail product. Although I try to break with the false dichotomy view of UX where it’s a choice between using method A or method B; different use cases benefit from a range of facets/perspectives for how products are presented to users. Pounds and pence units is fine as a default, but it shouldn’t be any great hardship to enable the conventional format for those who prefer or require it.

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A simple £ p button next to price should do the trick. When user clicks on either it should change colour to highlight the chosen price denomination.

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